Professional Numismatist Publishes Lord Renfrew's Coin Collection

Lord Renfrew, a vocal critic of the antiquities trade, has graciously allowed his collection of Etruscan coins to be published in Italo Vecchi�s impressive new corpus. The work publishes thousands of specimens from private and public collections and includes many coins that cannot be traced back to the 1970 date favored by archaeologists and some museums.

In supporting this endeavor, Lord Renfrew has demonstrated a commitment to scholarship shared by many collectors and,  indeed, professional numismatists like Italo Vecchi.

Sofaer Collection

The ANS has published the Sofaer collection of coins of the Holy Land.  This publication will add to the scholarship in the area.   The coins were all purchased on the collector market in the United States, Europe and Isreael.  Yes, numismatists can derive significant meaning from studying coins independent of any archaeological context.  Abe Sofaer is a former federal judge and State Department legal adviser.

ACCG Contests Forfeiture Action

The ACCG has filed a claim of interest to a group of coins minted in China and Cyprus that were seized by US Customs back in 2009.  By filing this pleading, the ACCG has placed the the government on notice that it intends to contest the forfeiture proceeding in Court.   The ACCG now has twenty-one (21) days to respond to the government's forfeiture complaint. 

Something's Missing from the Discussion About the Repatriation of Some Ancient Coins to Bulgaria

The Government has publicized the repatriation of some ancient coins to Bulgaria.   But we should be clear about the background of the return.  The coins were evidently abandoned after they were seized based on alleged misstatements on a customs form.  Though Bulgaria has sought a MOU with the United States, US import controls have not yet been promulgated.  Moreover, there is no allegation the coins in question were "stolen" from Bulgaria.  Indeed, that would be a difficult case to make given Bulgaria's open and legal trade in the exact same items.

For more about the issues surrounding the MOU that is being considered see here.

THE CHINESE DREAM SHOULD NOT ALLOWED TO BECOME AMERICA�S NIGHTMARE

This more or less was my statement to CPAC on behalf of IAPN and PNG.  I hope to report on the public session of CPAC considering the renewal of the MOU with China in the near future.

A recent issue of Economist Magazine writes of Xi Jinping, China�s new Communist Party Leader and his slogan, the Chinese Dream, a call for China to reclaim its ancient glory. 

          Part of all this, of course, is to highlight the importance of ancient Chinese artifacts not just through diplomatic efforts like this MOU, but through the creation of a vibrant internal collector�s market, including world class bourses like the Beijing International Coin and Stamp Show and auction houses like China Guardian and Poly Auctions.

          On that score, let me be the first to say I�m all for the Chinese government encouraging China�s own people to collect, preserve, study and display ancient artifacts, particularly as common as ancient Chinese coins, which must still exist in the millions if not billions.  That certainly is much preferable to the ideologically motivated destruction of Chinese cultural heritage during the Cultural Revolution or, for that matter, the far more recent demolition of historic Buddhist Temples and large swaths of Lhasa in Tibet and Kashgar on the Silk Road all in the name of progress.   

          But given the reality of a huge, largely open internal Chinese market in common antiquities like pottery and coins, it�s a fair question to ask what is the real purpose of the import restrictions our State Department, presumably with the consent of CPAC, have imposed on American collectors, the small businesses of the antiquities and coin trade and museums?

          I�m well aware that archaeologists have argued that import restrictions help drive potentially looted artifacts off the market, but such a claim makes little sense whatsoever given this huge internal Chinese market.   Indeed, all that is really being accomplished is to give Chinese dealers, auction houses and collectors a leg upon their foreign, particularly American competition.   

          Does CPAC really support such a state of affairs, particularly where the most successful Chinese antiquities sales outlets are insiders associated with the Chinese Government, like Poly Group run by the People�s Liberation Army and China Guardian Auctions, run by the daughter of one of China�s former leaders?  Let�s hope not.

          There is also the issue of Chinese compliance with the current MOU.    Several issues come to mind.   First, China was supposed to make it easier to legally export artifacts, but it has not.  Instead, it now reportedly bans exports of any artifact (even apparently foreign ones like 19^th c. US Trade Dollars) pre-dating 1911. 

          Of course, these rules do not apply to the free ports of Hong Kong and Macao.  China was also supposed to clamp down on them, but it has not.  Instead, artifacts leaving these ports can still be re-imported into the PRC no questions asked.   

          China has also failed to crack down on its own museums purchasing recently looted materials.  Indeed, the business plan of the Poly Group appears to contemplate purchases of such material.   Will CPAC and the State Department hold the PRC accountable to its promises?   Let�s hope so.

          Finally, let�s talk more about Chinese coins currently on the designated list.   The State Department and U.S. Customs have misapplied the CPIA�s requirement limiting any restrictions to artifacts �first discovered within� and �subject to the export control� of China.  They have instead barred the import of any Tang Dynasty and earlier coins based on their place of production, which is entirely different. 

          One cannot safely assume any Chinese cash coins are only found where they were made.  Scholarly evidence demonstrates that early cash coins like those on the designated list were exported in quantity with later issues all around the Far East and even as far West as Africa and the Arabian coast.  

          Certainly the entire agreement with China should be suspended because it is doing nothing to actually protect Chinese archaeological sites, but at a minimum, Chinese cash coins, which exist in the millions if not billions, should be delisted. 

          Indeed, if anything, both China and the State Department Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs should seek to have such exceptionally common coins disseminated as widely as possible to US Schools to help teach American students about Chinese history and hence foster the cultural understanding that is supposed to be the brief of ECA, whose Assistant Secretary is the deciding official for this MOU.   Perhaps, that should be a recommendation of CPAC during this  Asian Pacific American Heritage Month --not more restrictions on common coins of the sort widely collected in China itself.

Thank you.

Supreme Court Denies Cert.

Disappointingly, but perhaps not surprisingly given the some 150 petitions before the Court at its last conference, the Supreme Court has denied the ACCG's petition for certiorari.  (The Court granted certiorari in four cases, two of which were summarily sent back to the Second Circuit for consideration of a decision just issued this year.)

The Supreme Court's order has no precedential value, leaving the Fourth Circuit�s decision that the State Department's and U.S. Customs' decision-making is generally only subject to "political" rather than "judicial" review only applicable in that Circuit.  

ACCG now plans to contest the forfeiture action the Fourth Circuit anticipates the Government will file against the coins the ACCG imported for purposes of its test case. 

The test case is part of the ACCG's continuing effort to educate the public and government decision-makers about the damage overbroad restrictions have done to the ability of American collectors to legally import coins of the sort that remain widely available abroad, including in places like Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, Italy and China.  

In that regard,  the latest post on the Chasing Aphrodite blog provides further discussion about the thinking behind the test case. 

ACCG Petition for Cert. to be Considered Next Week

The Supreme Court will consider the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild's petition for certiorari at its March 22, 2013 conference.  One should not read anything into the Government waiver of its right to respond to the Petition.  CPO understands that this is standard operating procedure for the very busy Solicitor General's office.

New Work on Etruscan Coinage

I'm looking forward to coin dealer and scholar Italo Vecchi's new work about the enigmatic coinage of the Etruscan city states. I understand that Lord Renfrew collects this series.  One wonders if all Lord Renfrew's coins have a demonstrable provenance back to at least 1970.

Rewriting the Convention on Cultural Property Implementation Act

It's no surprise that Dr. Nathan Elkins-- one of the AIA's chief proponents of import restrictions on common historical coins of the sort collected worldwide-- claims that any coin type that circulated "predominantly" in a given country should be placed on the "designated list" for restrictions when it's easy for him to generalize that coins circulate "predominantly" where they are made.

But the governing statute, the Convention on Cultural Property Implementation Act, calls for much more.  Assuming other statutory criteria are also met, it only authorizes seizure and forfeiture of artifacts "first discovered within and...subject to export control by" a given country. 19 U.S.C. Section 2601(2)(c).

The ACCG has indicated that the Government could comply with the plain meaning of the CPIA in either one or two ways:  (1) establishing by undisputed scholarly evidence that the coins placed on the designated lists could only have been discovered in a given country for which import restrictions are granted and, hence, must be subject to their export controls; or (2) demonstrating by documentary evidence that any coins Customs seizes were in fact discovered in that country and, hence must be subject to that country's export controls.


The ACCG and others have offered scholarly evidence to suggest that ancient coins as a general rule circulated far from where they were minted.  The fact that some (local bronze coins) typically circulated closer to home than others (precious metal coins and Imperial bronze issues) does not excuse the State Department's and U.S. Customs' efforts to ban coin imports based on place of production rather than s find spot.

The overbroad import bans Elkins and the AIA support threaten to cut off collector access to the vast majority of ancient coins openly available on the international market.  In contrast, restrictions squarely linked to find spots are more narrowly tailored to deterring pillage of archaeological sites.  That, of course, is the primary goal of the CPIA; not the furthering of nationalistic impulses that lay claim to any unprovenanced coin as the presumptive state property of the AIA's allies in foreign cultural bureaucracies.

Museum of Fine Arts, Boston Opens New Ancient Coin Exhibit

The Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, has opened our nation's only permanent exhibition space for ancient coins in a US art museum.   There are other more or less permanent displays of ancient coins at other art museums, but nothing of a similar scale.

Kudos to the MFA for exhibiting its fine collection of ancient coins for the public.  For more, see here.

Reader Beware: Peter Weiss' Mea Culpa and Ancient Coin Collecting

The archaeological blogosphere is seeking to make the most of Peter Weiss' article in the ANS Magazine. While I don't have much to quibble with concerning Peter's recommendations-- at least as they relate to purchasing very expensive ancient coins-- one must also acknowledge that the article was written under duress as part of a plea deal, and one wonders if getting the article vetted by members of the archaeological lobby was some sort of requirement. It is of particular note that John Russell, a former (or current?) State Department employee also associated with the archaeological lobby (but not known as an expert in coins) is specifically mentioned in the introduction as one of Weiss' editors. Did prosecutor Bogdanos want to help his friends in the State Department justify their much criticized decision making concerning import restrictions on coins by "suggesting" that Russell and other members of the archaeological lobby be given editorial rights? The article certainly fails to mention some of the problems with the archaeological orthodoxy, including poor stewardship of coin finds by archaeologists and countries like Greece, Cyprus and Italy.  And let us not forget that unprovenanced coins are widely collected in each of the countries for which the US has granted import restrictions.  Yet, I hear no US archaeologist or State Department official criticizing such practices.

For more about Russell's apparent transformation from sanctions breaker to rule maker, see an earlier blog.

Update:  As some in the archaeological blogosphere purport to want me to respond to the topics raised in Peter Weiss' article, here again is a link to the article I wrote for the ANS Magazine.  I can also assure CPO readers that my own article was not written under duress.  Nor was it vetted by members of the archaeological lobby before publication.

Romney Picks Ancient Coin Collector Supporter as VP Choice

Mitt Romney has picked Congressman Paul Ryan as his VP Choice.   Congressman Ryan's office took the lead on a letter to the State Department that expressed concerns about the Italian MOU.  However, it's also worth noting that the letter was a bipartisan one, and the concerns expressed by coin collectors on how State and Customs have abused their statutory authority are non-partisan as well.

ACCG Oral Argument Scheduled

The ACCG's appeal of Judge Blake's dismissal of its test case will be heard before the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit in Richmond, Virginia, on September 19, 2012.   The Court will decide whether the ACCG is entitled to judicial review of the State Department's and Customs and Border Protection's controversial decisions to impose import restrictions on Cypriot and Chinese coins, and whether it is proper to restrict coins based on their place of production rather than their find spot under the provisions of the applicable law, the Convention on Cultural Property Implementation Act. 

Huge Iron Age Coin Hoard Found in Jersey

Coins Weekly discusses a huge coin hoard found on the Island of Jersey.   Metal detectorists found the hoard, but archaeologists excavated it making for a good example of the collaboration that is still possible between the groups where laws are not of a confiscatory nature.

No Shipment to the USA

One of the major Swiss coin auction houses has announced that it will no longer ship ancient coins to the USA, due to the growing list of import restrictions (and presumably recent problems importers have had with US Customs with regard to unrestricted ancient coins).

Here is the communication that has been sent by Sincona (formerly the numismatic arm of UBS) to US bidders:

Dear Mr. xxx

We would like to thank you very much for your bids.

Due to specific US customs regulations, Sincona is no longer shipping ancient coins into the USA!

Either you can personally pick up your auction lots at our office in Zurich (or having someone to do so on your behalf) or you have to provide us with a mailing address within the European Community, where we can send your purchase. If we do not receive your respective directives within 48 hours before the sale, we are sorry but cannot accept your bids for ancient coins!

Thank you for your understanding.

Elements within the AIA, the archaeological blogosphere, and cultural bureaucracies here and abroad will no doubt [at least secretly] applaud such developments.  On the other hand, others may now conclude that any speculative benefit import restrictions may have on the protection of archaeological sites is far outweighed by the direct,  negative consequences they undoubtedly also have on US small businesses, collectors, and ultimately the study, preservation and appreciation of ancient coins and the cultural exchange it fosters.

End Unilateral Trade Sanctions on Coin Collectors

The Huffington Post has published an editorial by Wayne Sayles attacking import restrictions on ancient coin collecting.

Coin collectors across the U.S. are tired of being singled out with unilateral sanctions. The State Department�s assault on our ability to collect coins is killing another American industry and leaving coin collectors in China and Europe to freely buy and sell. We�ve decided we aren�t going to take it anymore. Join us in ending the State Department�s assault on coin collecting.

Here is the first call to arms for coin collectors across the U.S.: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wayne-sayles/trade-sanction-coin-collectors_b_1400563.html

Help David Take on Goliath

Obviously, I agree with this World Coin News editorial: http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=24861

I would also note if any of the political appointees in the Obama State Department or US Customs actually studied the issues, they might also question how their agency's actions comport with President Obama's promises to curb over regulation, particularly when it harms small businesses. Are grossly overbroad import restrictions doing anything other than killing off small businesses and discriminating against American collectors compared to their European and Chinese counterparts?

Dave Harper believes ACCG is David, the underdog, in this battle against the bureaucratic Goliath. The latest political news is that President Obama apparently thinks he is an underdog too. Perhaps, that will encourage his political appointees to take a serious and independent look at what the bureaucracy has wrought. At a minimum, Harper's editorial should put world coin collectors on notice-- it's ancient coins today, early modern coins tomorrow.

Athens Coin Collections Under Attack

It appears that Greece's two major coin collections, those of the Alpha Bank and National Numismatic Collection, were subject to attack during the recent spate of rioting, but they are probably safe for now.

First, the ground floor of the Alpha Bank was set ablaze, but hopefully the coin collection on the eight floor of an adjacent building is still secure.

Second, there was also apparently an attack on the Government Numismatic Museum in the old Schliemann mansion, but hopefully the collection is safe behind security.

Recently, the State Department Bureau of Educational Affairs and US Customs imposed import restrictions on undocumented ancient Greek coins. Any coins that are forfeited under these regulations will go back to an uncertain future in Greece.

Archaeological bloggers remain in a state of denial about the implications of all this. And the State Department and US Customs presumably could care less about what they have wrought.

ACCG Posts Link to Appellate Brief

Here is a short synopsis of and link to the reply brief my firm filed in the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals arguing for the reversal of the District Court's dismissal of the ACCG's test case concerning import restriction on ancient coins: http://www.accg.us/News/Item/ACCG_Brief_filed_in_U_S_Court_of_Appeals.aspx

CPAC Meeting on Renewal of MOU with Cyprus

The United States Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC) met on January 18, 2012, to discuss the Cypriot MOU. Once again, CPAC Chair Prof. Patty Gerstenblith (PG, DePaul, Public Representative) began by thanking all speakers or those who had provided comments to CPAC. PG was joined by the following CPAC members Katherine Reid (KR, Cleveland Museum (retired)-Museum); Nina Archabal (NA, Minn. Historical Society-Museum); Marta de la Torre (MT- Florida International University, Public); James Willis (JW, James Willis Tribal Art-Trade); Nancy Wilkie (NW-Carlton College, Archaeology); Barbara Bluhm Kaul (BK,Trustee, Art Institute of Chicago- Public); Jane Levine (JL, Sotheby�s Compliance Department (ex-prosecutor)- Trade); and Rosemary Joyce (RJ,U. Cal., Berkley-Anthropology). Two slots, one in archaeology and the other a trade representative, remain vacant. KR, NW and JW also served under the Bush Administration. The others are Obama Appointees though PG and MT also served the Clinton Administration. There was also staff present including CPAC Executive Director Maria Kouroupas, a Committee lawyer, and Committee archaeologists.

The following individuals spoke at the meeting in support of the MOU: Carmen Biucchi (Harvard); Brian Daniels (U. Pennsylvania Cultural Heritage Center); Nathan Elkins (Baylor); Jane Evans (Temple); Raymond Ewing (CAARI); Ellen Hersher (CAARI); Anne Marie Knobloch (Virginia Tech); Laetitia La Follette (U. Mass./ AIA); Andrew McCarthy (CAARI); Joanna Smith (Princeton); Chris Shaegel (U. Cyprus); Tom Kline (Andrews Kurth); Josh Knerly (AAMD).

The following individuals spoke against the MOU: Peter Tompa (IAPN/PNG); Wayne Sayles (ACCG); and Eloise Ullman (ICTA). In addition, 77% of the comments recorded on the regulations.gov website either opposed the MOU or their extension to coins.

Carmen Biucchi (Harvard) indicated that coins provide important documentation of early Cypriot history because there are few written sources. Even low value bronze coins are important because they frequently appear at archaeological sites. We need to all work together to preserve the past. Cypriot coins are relatively uncommon. In response to a question, Biucchi indicated that it is relatively easy to trace expensive coins due to their appearance at auction, but this is not the case for less expensive coins. She also indicated that metal detectors are the problem.

Brian Daniels (U. Penn. Cultural Center) argued for the extension of restrictions to post-Byzantine period ecclesiastical material. He also suggested that US law enforcement pursue better coordination with Cypriot law enforcement, and other countries with strong Greek cultural influence, including Greece itself and Bulgaria.

Nathan Elkins (Baylor) indicated that Cyprus� cultural property is in jeopardy as proven by a recent large seizure of artifacts, which included bronze and silver coins. There is a large market in the US as demonstrated by the fact that 200 Cypriot coins are currently listed on the V-coins website. Most Cypriot coins circulated locally. If you add together a list prepared by Wayne Sayles of coins found outside of Cyprus and a list Elkins compiled of coins from Cypriot contexts, that shows that Cypriot coinage is much more prevalent in Cyprus than outside of Cyprus.

Jane Evans (Temple) also indicated that it was important to continue restrictions on coins because it is important that their context not be lost.

Raymond Ewing is a former ambassador to Cyprus. He now serves a CAARI�s President. CAARI receives funding from the US Department of State, Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs and the National Endowment for the Humanities. Import restrictions should be as closely conformed to Cypriot law, that covers artifacts up to 1850, as possible.

Ellen Hersher is a scholar and archaeologist associated with CAARI. Cyprus has been a specialty for over 40 years. Looting is a historical problem in Cyprus. Looting still goes on until today. Looting only declined during the periods of WWI and WWII and during the 1950�s when British forces were involved in anti-insurgency operations. Wealthy Cypriots have collected Cypriot antiquities since the 19th Century. There is no shame in looting in Cyprus. Increasing efforts are being made to educate the populace. There is a great need for a new museum (the current one dates back to Victorian times) to encourage youth to respect their past. Metal detectors continue to be a serious problem; more legislation is needed. The major collections are grandfathered in. It is Ms. Hersher�s opinion that they are no longer adding much material, but most Cypriots don�t think that looting is wrong. We shouldn�t point fingers at Cyprus, but try to fix the problem.

Anne Marie Knobloch is a CAARI board member, who teaches at Virginia Tech. She is also an AIA member. Cyprus has important religious sanctuaries that need to be studied. Virginia Tech offers students the opportunity to excavate in Cyprus and would like to do more with Cypriot students.

Laetitia La Follette is the AIA�s VP for professional responsibility. She is associated with the University of Massachusetts. Looting remains a problem, including for coins. Because ancient coins are handmade, they are all different and may be traced. The AIA can help draft the designated list. The laws in the Greek Cypriot area need to be tightened. The laws in the North are actually stronger.

Andrew McCarthy is a CAARI trustee. Looting has increased since the 1960�s. There is a famous incident where a tomb was set aside as a dowry. The Department of Antiquities is doing its best to fight against looting. A site where McCarthy works has not suffered looting from 2007-2011. There was one incident where looters struck the site, presumably looking for coins. CAARI gives all documentation created from archaeological investigations to the Department of Antiquities. MOU�s can help educate Cypriots about the importance of their heritage.

Joanna Smith of Princeton is a past CAARI Trustee. Cyprus is an academic cross-roads. Cypriot children are being taught about their history and Cyprus sends exhibits abroad.

Chris Shaegel is from the University of Cyprus. He works closely with CAARI. Because there are few manuscripts that predate 1600, the preservation of Cypriot material culture is important. Coins should be protected and the restrictions should be extended further in time. Icons also need protection. There is no internal market in Cyprus.

Peter Tompa spoke for IAPN and PNG, two trade associations that represent the small business of the numismatic trade. Each Committee member must ask themselves whether they can do so in good conscious after considering these undisputed facts: (1) Coins were evidently placed on the designated list on the orders of former Undersecretary Nicholas Burns as a �thank you� to Cypriot advocacy groups which had given him an award; (2) Jay Kislak, CPAC�s former chair, has stated under oath that the State Department misled Congress and the Public about CPAC�s vote against import restrictions on coins: (3)In 2007, the AIA claimed that Cypriot coins �rarely circulated� to justify restrictions on �coins of Cypriot type.� However, a top Cypriot official has admitted that �It is true that Cypriot coins shared the same destiny as all other coins of the ancient world. As a standard media of exchange they circulated all over the ancient world due to their small size, which facilitated their easy transport�� Moreover, this view has substantial scholarly support; (4) The CPIA requires less drastic remedies to be tried first before import restrictions are imposed, but Cyprus has no coherent regulatory scheme for metal detectors and even allows British tourists to bring them to the Island; and (5) Restrictions imposed on unprovenanced �coins of Cypriot type� only discriminate against American collectors and the small businesses of the numismatic trade; such coins may be shipped from abroad to anywhere but the USA, including Cyprus.

Moreover, he stated that there is no good reason to renew the MOU for yet another 5 years. Cyprus has already had the benefit of restrictions since 1999 on ethnological artifacts and 2002 on archaeological artifacts. Yet, a Swiss scholar reports most looted material goes to wealthy Greek Cypriot collectors, and not as has been maintained to collectors abroad. In addition, all this appears to be done with the full knowledge and acquiescence of Greek Cypriot authorities. Thus, restrictions only discriminate against American collectors.

In response to a question from JW, Tompa indicated it was wrong to so burden the small businesses of the numismatic trade just so archaeologists might occasionally get some relevant information about dating sites from a coin. He also disputed the claim by JL that import restrictions are easy to comply with. He noted that US Customs will not allow entry of coins and other antiquities unless they are pictured in a catalogue that predates restrictions. Thus, even the difficult to obtain certifications are not enough for Customs.

Wayne Sayles indicated that the ACCG represents the interests of the approximately 50,000 serious ancient coin collectors in the United States. The ACCG is interested in fair and equitable application of US law. The CPIA was meant to protect significant artifacts, not everything under the sun. In response to a question from PG, Wayne Sayles indicated that it is unrealistic to ask the small businesses of the numismatic trade to provide provenance information for every coin they import.

Eloise Ullman indicated that most ICTA members have under 5 employees. She also noted that President Obama recently recognized that it is important not to overburden small businesses with paperwork when his administration signed onto an effort to end a burdensome requirement that coin dealers prepare 1099 forms for every purchase over $600.

Tom Kline disclosed that he previously represented Cyprus. He stated that Cyprus is a leader in protecting its own cultural property, but takes a reasonable approach in doing so. The Turkish Republic is an illegal regime so he disputes that DOS look to their laws on antiquities as models. We need higher ethical standards from collectors. The import restrictions on coins should be no big deal because the restrictions only date from 2007. Collectors only have themselves to blame if they do not keep adequate documentation.

Josh Knerly spoke on behalf of the AAMD which supports the MOU with Cyprus with some limited provisos. First, the AAMD would like to know more about a proposal to extend restrictions to new types of ecclesiastical objects. It appears members of the archaeological community know details of the request, but these have not been shared by the public at large. KR asked why no Museum Director was present. Knerly indicated he would determine if some curators with specialized knowledge would be able to testify in the future.